{"id":305,"date":"2022-02-17T12:01:00","date_gmt":"2022-02-17T12:01:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/podcasts.la.utexas.edu\/american-rhapsody\/?post_type=podcast&p=305"},"modified":"2022-02-07T14:59:16","modified_gmt":"2022-02-07T14:59:16","slug":"episode-11","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/podcasts.la.utexas.edu\/american-rhapsody\/podcast\/episode-11\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 11: The Governor and the Colonel: A Dual Biography of William P. Hobby and Oveta Culp Hobby"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

After establishing himself as a pioneer in the news media industry in Texas, Will Hobby served as Lt. Gov. of Texas from 1915 until September 1917, when he became Governor. He led Texas\u2019 effort to support the American military during World War I, and he had to resolve significant political and social issues that swept the state and the nation, including lawlessness and corruption on the state\u2019s southern border, and heated battles over prohibition and women\u2019s suffrage. Will signed the bill giving women the right to vote in primary elections, and he subsequently played a role in the ratification of the 19th amendment to the U.S. Constitution.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

During World War II Oveta took her place on the national stage as the celebrated founding commander of the Women\u2019s Army Corps. In recognition of her extremely difficult but outstanding performance during the war, she received the Distinguished Service Medal, the first woman so honored. In 1953, Oveta became only the second woman in U. S. history to serve on a presidential cabinet when Eisenhower appointed her as the Secretary of the newly established Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. While head of the HEW, Oveta directed the effort to expand the number of Americans covered by Social Security, and she oversaw the development and controversial distribution of the Salk polio vaccine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The \u201cHobby Team\u201d of Will and Oveta quickly forged an intimate personal and professional relationship leading to the establishment of an influential media business that eventually included ownership of the Houston Post and Houston\u2019s pioneering KPRC Radio and KPRC TV.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

On this episode, we interview Don Carleton, the Briscoe Center\u2019s executive director. Don joins us to discuss his most recent book, a dual biography of Will and Oveta Hobby, The Governor and the Colonel.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
Will signs the suffrage referendum act in the Texas Capitol, while skeptical Minnie Fisher Cunningham looks on from his left, February 5, 1918<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n
\"\"
Will and Oveta Culp Hobby with US Representative Edith Nourse Rogers after Oveta was sworn in as director of the WAAC, 1942<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n
\"\"
Oveta Culp Hobby being sworn in as commander of the WAC, 1943. Generals Marshall (middle) and Somervell (far right) stand behind her.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n
\"\"
Will Hobby appearing before a joint session of the Texas Legislature shortly after becoming governor following Ferguson\u2019s impeachment, 1917.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n
\"\"
Oveta Culp Hobby and President Lyndon B. Johnson at the dedication of the Oveta Culp Hobby Library at Central Texas College, Killeen, December 1967.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"After establishing himself as a pioneer in the news media industry in Texas, Will Hobby served as Lt. Gov. of Texas from 1915 until September 1917, when he became Governor. He led Texas\u2019 effort to support the American military during World War I, and he had to resolve significant political and social issues that swept […]","protected":false},"author":13,"featured_media":0,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_genesis_hide_title":false,"_genesis_hide_breadcrumbs":false,"_genesis_hide_singular_image":false,"_genesis_hide_footer_widgets":false,"_genesis_custom_body_class":"","_genesis_custom_post_class":"","_genesis_layout":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"http:\/\/podcasts.la.utexas.edu\/american-rhapsody\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/31\/2022\/01\/2021-11-30_American-Rhapsody_Hobby-Book-Draft_1.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"","filesize":"85.39M","filesize_raw":"89536282","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":"","itunes_episode_number":"","itunes_title":"","itunes_season_number":"","itunes_episode_type":""},"tags":[15,86,84,25,80,82,85,81,37,40,83],"categories":[],"series":[2],"class_list":{"0":"post-305","1":"podcast","2":"type-podcast","3":"status-publish","5":"tag-american-history","6":"tag-hobby-team","7":"tag-impeachment","8":"tag-journalism","9":"tag-lbj","10":"tag-oveta","11":"tag-oveta-cup","12":"tag-president-lyndon-b-johnson","13":"tag-texas","14":"tag-ut","15":"tag-will-hobby","16":"series-american-rhapsody","17":"entry"},"acf":{"related_episodes":"","hosts":[{"ID":313,"post_author":"57","post_date":"2022-01-07 17:48:59","post_date_gmt":"2022-01-07 17:48:59","post_content":"\n

Erin Purdy is the director of communications for the Briscoe Center for American History at the University of Texas at Austin. A proud Cleveland native, she was a curator at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum, the editor-in-chief of\u00a0Cleveland Magazine<\/em>, and a researcher and writer for The History Factory before fulfilling her childhood dream of moving to Austin, Texas. Initially hired at the Briscoe Center in 2005 as an oral historian, her responsibilities increased to management of the center\u2019s communications and public outreach efforts, including exhibits, publications, and print and online communications. She left in 2016 to work for\u00a0Texas State University in presidential, fundraising, and admissions communications, but greatly missed working in history. It was her great fortune to return to the Briscoe Center in 2021. Erin lives in Kyle, Texas, with her husband Chris Miller and Sophie, their incredibly spoiled rescue dog.<\/p>\n","post_title":"Erin Purdy","post_excerpt":"","post_status":"publish","comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","post_password":"","post_name":"erin-purdy","to_ping":"","pinged":"","post_modified":"2022-02-23 17:18:34","post_modified_gmt":"2022-02-23 17:18:34","post_content_filtered":"","post_parent":0,"guid":"https:\/\/podcasts.la.utexas.edu\/american-rhapsody\/?post_type=speaker&p=313","menu_order":0,"post_type":"speaker","post_mime_type":"","comment_count":"0","filter":"raw"}],"guests":[{"ID":88,"post_author":"38","post_date":"2020-10-30 16:13:42","post_date_gmt":"2020-10-30 16:13:42","post_content":"\n

Dr. Don Carleton is the founding director of The University of Texas at Austin's Dolph Briscoe Center for American History, which was organized in 1991. Prior to the creation of the Briscoe Center, he served from October 1975 through November 1979 as founding director of the Houston Metropolitan Research Center (HMRC), an urban history archives program sponsored by Rice University, the University of Houston, and the City of Houston. At HMRC, he established The Houston Review: A Journal of History and Culture of the Gulf Coast<\/em>. From December 1979 until 1991 he served as the director of the University's Eugene C. Barker Texas History Center. A native of Dallas, Texas, Carleton earned his doctorate in U. S. history at the University of Houston.<\/p>\n","post_title":"Don Carleton","post_excerpt":"","post_status":"publish","comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","post_password":"","post_name":"don-carleton","to_ping":"","pinged":"","post_modified":"2020-10-30 16:13:43","post_modified_gmt":"2020-10-30 16:13:43","post_content_filtered":"","post_parent":0,"guid":"http:\/\/podcasts.la.utexas.edu\/american-rhapsody\/?post_type=speaker&p=88","menu_order":0,"post_type":"speaker","post_mime_type":"","comment_count":"0","filter":"raw"}],"transcript":"

\n
AR-The Governor and the Colonel <\/span>
[00:00:00]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span>
[00:00:00]<\/span> This is American Rhapsody, a podcast of the Briscoe Center for <\/span>
American History at the University of Texas at Austin. American history is <\/span>
many things, but it is most certainly a rhapsody quilted together from the ragged<\/span>
patches of many disjointed stories, and yet somehow managing to form a <\/span>
coherent whole. I\u2019m Erin Purdy, director of communications for the Briscoe <\/span>
Center, a repository for the raw materials of the past, the evidence of history <\/span>
that we collect, preserve, and make available for use.<\/span>
[00:00:41]<\/span> On each episode, we talk to the individuals who helped create that <\/span>
evidence, to the donors who preserved it, and to the researchers who use those <\/span>
collections in their work, and we keep the American Rhapsody going. On this <\/span>
episode, I interviewed Don Carleton, the Briscoe Center\u2019s executive director. <\/span>
Don joins us to discuss his most recent book, <\/span>The Governor and the Colonel.<\/span>
The book published by the Briscoe Center and distributed by the University of <\/span>
Texas Press is a dual biography of Will and Oveta Hobby. Will Hobby was a <\/span>
pioneer of the news media industry in Texas, as publisher and editor of the <\/span>
Beaumont Enterprise<\/span>, and later the <\/span>Houston Post.<\/span> Will served as lieutenant <\/span>
governor of Texas from 1915 until September 1917, when he became governor.<\/span>
[00:01:25]<\/span> He led Texas\u2019s effort to support the American military during World <\/span>
War I, when the state became the training ground for tens of thousands of <\/span>
soldiers. He also had to resolve significant political and social issues that swept <\/span>
the state and the nation, including lawlessness and corruption on the state\u2019s <\/span>
southern border and heated battles over prohibition and women\u2019s suffrage.<\/span>
[00:01:47]<\/span> Will signed the bill giving women the right to vote in primary <\/span>
elections, and he subsequently played a role in the ratification of the Nineteenth <\/span>
Amendment to the US Constitution. He left office in January 1921. In 1931 <\/span>
Will married Oveta Culp, the twenty-four-year-old daughter of a former <\/span>
member of the Texas legislature. By the time of their marriage, she was well-<\/span>
known in local and state political and civic affairs.<\/span>
[00:02:14]<\/span> The Hobby team of Will and Oveta quickly forged an intimate, <\/span>
personal, and professional relationship. During World War II. Oveta took her <\/span>
place on the national stage as the celebrated founding commander of the <\/span>
Women\u2019s Army Corps. In recognition of her extremely difficult but outstanding<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
performance during the war, she received the Distinguished Service Medal, the <\/span>
first woman so honored.<\/span>
[00:02:37]<\/span> In 1953, Oveta became only the second woman in US history to <\/span>
serve on a presidential cabinet when Eisenhower appointed her as the Secretary <\/span>
of the newly established Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. While <\/span>
head of the HEW Oveta directed the effort to expand the number of Americans <\/span>
covered by Social Security, and she oversaw the development and <\/span>[00:03:00]<\/span>
controversial distribution of the Salk polio vaccine.<\/span>
[00:03:04]<\/span> The marriage of Will and Oveta led to the establishment of an <\/span>
influential media business that eventually included ownership of the <\/span>Houston <\/span>
Post <\/span>and Houston\u2019s pioneering KPRC radio and KPRC TV. And, linked <\/span>
together through shared knowledge of and devotion to public service and <\/span>
journalism, the Hobbys would play an essential role in the transformation of <\/span>
Houston into the fourth-largest city in the United States.<\/span>
[00:03:30]<\/span> Don Carleton is certainly no stranger to the history of Texas or the <\/span>
city of Houston. Prior to the creation of the Briscoe Center, he started as <\/span>
founding director of the Houston Metropolitan Research Center and Urban <\/span>
History Archive. He has served as director of the Briscoe Center at UT Austin <\/span>
for more than forty years.<\/span>
[00:03:48]<\/span> Don is the author of twelve books, including <\/span>Red Scare, A Breed So <\/span>
Rare, <\/span>and <\/span>Conversations with Cronkite.<\/span> He is also the executive producer of <\/span>
two PBS documentaries. <\/span>When I Rise<\/span> and <\/span>Cactus Jack: Lone Star on Capitol <\/span>
Hill.<\/span> In our conversation, Don shares insights into his extensive research and <\/span>
writing of <\/span>The Governor and the Colonel.<\/span> In his three years of research for the <\/span>
book, he consulted collections at twenty-two different archival institutions, oral <\/span>
histories with thirty people and nearly four hundred books and articles.<\/span>
[00:04:20]<\/span> Dan Rather has called the book \u201cBiography at its best . . . an epic of <\/span>
romance, power and politics told with broad historical sweep.\u201d Let\u2019s hear from <\/span>
Don on how the book came to be, his decision to shape the book as a dual <\/span>
biography, and why Will and Oveta were such important figures in Texas and <\/span>
American history.<\/span>
[00:04:56]<\/span> So, Don, welcome to American Rhapsody. This is your first time <\/span>
[00:05:00]<\/span> as a guest of the show. You usually are here as the executive director<\/span>
and the primary narrator for our American Rhapsody podcast series. But today <\/span>
we\u2019re here to talk to you as a historian and more specifically to talk to you about<\/span>
the recent book, <\/span>The Governor and the Colonel<\/span>.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
[00:05:19]<\/span> So let\u2019s start by talking a little bit about how there\u2019s a connection <\/span>
between the subject of <\/span>The Governor and the Colonel<\/span>, the Hobby family, and <\/span>
your earliest work as a historian. Can you share how your research into the <\/span>
history of the red scare at the local level was tied to the Hobby family? <\/span>
[00:05:37]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Sure.<\/span>
[00:05:37]<\/span> You know, when I started that book on the red scare, really the <\/span>
purpose of that book was to examine the impact of McCarthyism and that whole<\/span>
anticommunist hysteria that was prevalent in the late 1940s and early 1950s. I <\/span>
wanted to see what impact it had on what I call \u201cmain street,\u201d that is the local <\/span>
level in the United States.<\/span>
[00:06:04]<\/span> And so I chose Houston to be my case study, which was an obvious <\/span>
thing for me to do because I was living in Houston at the time. And so, when I <\/span>
was doing research on the red scare in Houston, which ultimately was published<\/span>
as a book with the title of <\/span>Red Scare<\/span>, one of the things that I uncovered, not that <\/span>
it was hidden exactly, was the role of the local daily newspapers in Houston in <\/span>
encouraging and really revving up the anticommunist hysteria in that city,<\/span>
[00:06:47] <\/span>particularly during the period after 1948. So, I started reading all the <\/span>
editorials. I had a full run of the three main papers in Houston. One was the <\/span>
[00:07:00]<\/span> Houston Press<\/span>, which was a Scripps-Howard newspaper, the <\/span>
Houston Chronicle<\/span>, which was owned by Jesse Jones, who had been in FDR\u2019s <\/span>
cabinet,<\/span>
[00:07:09]<\/span> and the third was the <\/span>Houston Post<\/span>, which was owned by a dynamic <\/span>
couple, William P. Hobby Sr. and Oveta Culp Hobby. This was the first time <\/span>
that I really studied some of the things they were doing in publishing with any <\/span>
depth. So, I started that work. You know, it\u2019s hard to imagine now, but it was <\/span>
fifty years ago, literally.<\/span>
[00:07:39]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> And that was initially research for your dissertation <\/span>
when you were at the University of Houston, correct? <\/span>
[00:07:42]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> That\u2019s correct. Yes, it was a dissertation that I later <\/span>
broadened considerably and revised a whole lot and published as a book, but <\/span>
that was my first, certainly my first scholarly connection to the story of the <\/span>
Hobby family. <\/span>[00:08:00]<\/span> So my work in one way or another often over the <\/span>
years has come back and forth with the Hobbys.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
[00:08:08]<\/span> Interestingly enough, it\u2019s something I would have never predicted, <\/span>
but that\u2019s how I got started. <\/span>
[00:08:13]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> The writing of this book in some ways is closing a big <\/span>
circle for you. <\/span>
[00:08:17]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Absolutely. The interesting thing about it is that the <\/span>
family\u2019s story, particularly William P. Hobby Sr., and his wife Oveta Culp <\/span>
Hobby, and their son William P. Hobby Jr., who is known more widely as Bill <\/span>
Hobby, but as I have worked over the years on various projects, one way or <\/span>
another, the Hobby story became connected to some of the other things I was <\/span>
doing. <\/span>
A good example is I edited and annotated a memoir of a former governor of <\/span>
Texas by the name of Ross Sterling, who is one of the founders of the Humble <\/span>
Oil Company, which was a predecessor of <\/span>[00:09:00]<\/span> today\u2019s Exxon Oil <\/span>
Company.<\/span>
[00:09:02]<\/span> Ross Sterling was extremely important in the career of William P. <\/span>
Hobby Sr. If you don\u2019t mind, I\u2019m going to refer to William P. Hobby Sr. from <\/span>
this point on, Erin, as Will. So, at any rate, I edited that memoir of Ross <\/span>
Sterling, and William P. Hobby is all over that story, which I cover in this <\/span>
biography.<\/span>
[00:09:26]<\/span> There\u2019s been those instances where I\u2019ve run into their story while I <\/span>
was doing other subjects. <\/span>
[00:09:31]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> You\u2019ve also authored a number of other books as a <\/span>
historian, or \u201cas-told-to\u201d books that have ties to the Hobby family. For example,<\/span>
your work with the J. R. Parten biography. <\/span>
[00:09:43]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Right. He talks about Oveta Culp Hobby.<\/span>
[00:09:46]<\/span> He knew her and William P. Hobby. It\u2019s not a central part of that <\/span>
story or that biography, but yes, we do deal a little bit with them with the <\/span>
Hobbys.<\/span>
[00:09:56]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> So, Don, when it came to writing the history of the <\/span>
Hobbys, what was behind your decision to make it a Briscoe Center\u2013sponsored <\/span>
project? <\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
[00:10:05]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Well, I think it\u2019s important for me to point out really <\/span>
what the Briscoe Center is about.<\/span>
[00:10:10]<\/span> Not only do we have these massive historical archives of original <\/span>
papers and documents, as well as our book library and so forth, but we make all <\/span>
of those things available to the public and to our students and faculty for <\/span>
research and study. But the Briscoe Center is also called a research center <\/span>
because we do our own research projects and we disseminate the results of <\/span>
those projects through documentary films, exhibits, lectures, different programs,<\/span>
but also books. Because we have the William P. Hobby Sr., Governor Hobby\u2019s <\/span>
papers as well as the papers of his son, Bill Hobby, and a number of other <\/span>
papers that relate in some important way to <\/span>[00:11:00]<\/span> William P. Hobby Sr. <\/span>
and others. Again, let me call him Will, to Will Sr. and to Oveta Culp Hobby. It <\/span>
seemed like a natural project to do because I can base so much of this on the <\/span>
holdings here at the center. So that\u2019s the reason that we made it a Briscoe Center<\/span>
official project.<\/span>
[00:11:22]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> In fact, another project that the Briscoe Center <\/span>
produced was Bill Hobby\u2019s memoir, <\/span>How Things Really Work<\/span>, that was back in <\/span>
2010. I think it\u2019s also important for you to share with us why you felt that the <\/span>
stories of Will and Oveta needed to be told in the form of a dual biography. <\/span>
What was your thinking, and how did you feel that that filled a void in the <\/span>
academic literature?<\/span>
[00:11:46]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Well, I could have done just a single biography of <\/span>
Will Hobby as the former governor of Texas. But as I studied his life, I realized,<\/span>
first of all, that there has been very little <\/span>[00:12:00]<\/span> done about him. He was a <\/span>
very important figure in Texas history. He was a pioneer in the news media <\/span>
industry, a newspaper publisher, and so forth.<\/span>
[00:12:10]<\/span> And he was involved in one of the first radio stations here in Texas. <\/span>
But the more I studied, I not only realized that there was not much published <\/span>
about him, but also that his wife, his second wife I should add, his first wife <\/span>
died unexpectedly after he was governor. But after Will Hobby married Oveta <\/span>
Culp Hobby, it became clear that you couldn\u2019t tell his story without also telling <\/span>
hers. She outlived him.<\/span>
[00:12:41]<\/span> She was much younger than Will Hobby. And so they had a story, <\/span>
really, that overlapped in so many important ways for a good portion of both of <\/span>
their lives, but they also had their own story that preceded the marriage and the <\/span>
story that came after his death. <\/span>[00:13:00]<\/span> I just thought it was important to tell <\/span>
this story as a dual biography, because they really did have a true partnership.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
[00:13:10]<\/span> Once they got married, one didn\u2019t take a step in business or politics <\/span>
or anything else without consulting the other. So it was important to really <\/span>
combine their story. <\/span>
[00:13:22]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> I think there\u2019s also some sense of Will\u2019s early success, <\/span>
not just as a newspaper man, but as a politician that really helped propel Oveta <\/span>
and her later success on a national level.<\/span>
[00:13:36]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Oh yeah, that\u2019s true. You know, I agree with that. <\/span>
And that\u2019s another reason why I wanted to do a dual biography because Will\u2019s <\/span>
success, his ability as a newspaper publisher, he was publisher of the <\/span>Houston <\/span>
Post<\/span>, really gave her a platform and a place to kind of launch her career. But I <\/span>
want to emphasize that from studying Oveta Culp Hobby as a <\/span>[00:14:00]<\/span>
personality and her story, I don\u2019t have any doubt that she would have also <\/span>
eventually in some other ways become a well-known citizen, but yes, I mean, <\/span>
there\u2019s no doubt that the way things turned out, her marriage to Will was a <\/span>
major launching point for her. <\/span>
[00:14:19]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> Then as you discussed just her own extraordinary <\/span>
capabilities, she helped expand his circle of influence and helped keep things <\/span>
like the <\/span>Post <\/span>and the radio stations and television stations, just really successful.<\/span>
[00:14:33]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Yes, that\u2019s correct. She continued, he died in 1964 <\/span>
and she lived until she was in her nineties and she died in 1995. So she outlived <\/span>
him thirty-one years. And during most of that time, she continued developing <\/span>
the <\/span>Houston Post<\/span> and their television properties and staying very active in <\/span>
politics.<\/span>
[00:14:56]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> Let\u2019s talk a little bit more in depth about some of the <\/span>
sources that you used in your <\/span>[00:15:00]<\/span> research. You mentioned other <\/span>
collections at the Briscoe Center. What were some of the collections here that <\/span>
were used and where there any surprises that you found in our collections to <\/span>
help you with this book?<\/span>
[00:15:09]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> There has been one book published that is called <\/span>
Tactful Texan<\/span>. That\u2019s really kind of an as-told-to autobiography of Will Hobby <\/span>
that was published in the late 1950s. It was very useful to me. It\u2019s almost like an<\/span>
oral history because I know that he practically dictated that book to an author. <\/span>
That\u2019s the only thing really available about his life and career.<\/span>
[00:15:33]<\/span> And it\u2019s not that adequate. And in fact it\u2019s pretty much inadequate, <\/span>
although it does have some great stuff in it that I used. As I got into this, I was <\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
really surprised with the papers of Governor Oscar Colquitt. Oscar Colquitt was<\/span>
governor before Will Hobby became governor and Colquitt was very important <\/span>
to Hobby\u2019s career and they were <\/span>[00:16:00]<\/span> political allies.<\/span>
[00:16:00]<\/span> Well, that\u2019s just a good example of some of the richness here in our <\/span>
collections, because I was only dimly aware of how important the Oscar <\/span>
Colquitt papers were until I got into this and realized the strong connection with<\/span>
Will Hobby. We have the papers of a man named Will Hogg, H O G G and Will<\/span>
Hogg was the son of another Governor James Stephen Hogg. Will Hogg\u2019s <\/span>
papers are very valuable to help understand some of Hobby\u2019s story as well. <\/span>
There are several others as well, but I could just name those two as good <\/span>
examples. <\/span>
[00:16:39]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> I think it would be helpful to know, obviously, while <\/span>
we champion the Briscoe Center collections, for you to accomplish a biography <\/span>
of this scope and academic importance, you used other sources as well.<\/span>
[00:16:51]<\/span> So where else did you go? <\/span>
[00:16:53]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> I did some traveling. I would use resources or should<\/span>
say papers and other materials. I think it was <\/span>[00:17:00]<\/span> something like twenty <\/span>
different archives and just dozens of collections, several collections in different <\/span>
archives. Because Oveta Culp Hobby became a national figure and she was <\/span>
involved in national politics, particularly with Dwight Eisenhower, President <\/span>
Eisenhower, I used collections from five different presidential libraries.<\/span>
[00:17:21]<\/span> Beginning with Herbert Hoover\u2019s and going all the way through to <\/span>
Lyndon Johnson with the exception of John F. Kennedy\u2019s papers, because <\/span>
Oveta Culp Hobby had really no relationship with the Kennedy administration <\/span>
to speak of, I was able to really find an enormously valuable amount of material<\/span>
from those five presidential libraries. I also used the resources that are available <\/span>
there at the Rockefeller brothers archive, which is in Tarrytown, Sleepy Hollow,<\/span>
New York up on the Hudson because Nelson Rockefeller also <\/span>[00:18:00]<\/span> played<\/span>
a role in Oveta Culp Hobby\u2019s career.<\/span>
[00:18:02]<\/span> He was the deputy secretary of HEW when Oveta Culp Hobby was <\/span>
the secretary of HEW and they had an interesting relationship as well. And so I <\/span>
did find some great stuff in the Nelson Rockefeller\u2019s papers in New York. And <\/span>
then of course, Oveta Culp Hobby herself has important collections of papers in <\/span>
three different archives.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
[00:18:28]<\/span> One of them is the Woodson Research Center at Rice University, <\/span>
where the largest body of her papers are located, but also at the Library of <\/span>
Congress and at the Eisenhower Presidential Library. All of her work as a <\/span>
cabinet member in the Eisenhower cabinet is of course documented there in the <\/span>
Eisenhower library. The Library of Congress houses her papers documenting <\/span>
the time when she was the founding commander <\/span>[00:19:00]<\/span> of the Women\u2019s <\/span>
Army Corps.<\/span>
[00:19:02]<\/span> All of her Women\u2019s Army Corps papers are at the Library of <\/span>
Congress. So, there are a number of other places that I was able to use. But I <\/span>
had to chase around to a lot of locations to do this research. <\/span>
[00:19:16]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> I think it speaks to the importance of both Will and <\/span>
Oveta and the issues that they dealt with in their lives, which really are <\/span>
incredibly important issues for American history.<\/span>
[00:19:28]<\/span> Let\u2019s talk through some of the things that you discovered as you <\/span>
were doing this research that are particularly compelling. I think one of the <\/span>
earliest stories that you tell that is incredibly important in terms of Texas history<\/span>
is the story of the Peach Tree Village network. Talk a little bit about why that <\/span>
Peach Tree Village network was so interesting or compelling to you as a <\/span>
researcher.<\/span>
[00:19:55]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Will Hobby\u2019s father, Edwin Hobby, was an attorney <\/span>
and he <\/span>[00:20:00]<\/span> himself became a state senator and later a judge here in Texas<\/span>
in the nineteenth century. Will Hobby was born in 1878, but Will Hobby\u2019s <\/span>
father Edwin Hobby started out as an attorney in this little crossroads, a little <\/span>
village called Peach Tree. Peach Tree Village in East Texas, what we call deep <\/span>
East Texas here.<\/span>
This little village produced some remarkable people. I mean, there\u2019s just a <\/span>
handful of people living there, but one of them was the family of Ross Sterling, <\/span>
who I\u2019ve already mentioned is an extremely important person in Will Hobby\u2019s <\/span>
later life. But Ross Sterling\u2019s family was there in this little village.<\/span>
[00:20:45]<\/span> Now let me add, by the way, that Will himself was not born in Peach<\/span>
Tree, he was born in a little town called Moscow, Texas, which is in Polk, P O <\/span>
L K, Polk County, Texas. But his <\/span>[00:21:00]<\/span> family had very strong links to <\/span>
these people, these few people in Peach Tree Village. So they had this <\/span>
incredible network. It also included a man named John Henry Kirby.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
[00:21:11]<\/span> John Henry Kirby at one point I believe may have been the <\/span>
wealthiest person in Texas, and he grew up in Peach Tree Village. And another <\/span>
man who grew up in Peach Tree Village was Samuel Bronson Cooper, and <\/span>
Samuel Bronson Cooper\u2019s family were very close friends with John Henry <\/span>
Kirby\u2019s, with Ross Sterling\u2019s family, and with Will Hobby\u2019s family, and Cooper<\/span>
became a very influential and important congressman, US congressman for East<\/span>
Texas.<\/span>
[00:21:44]<\/span> You know, there weren\u2019t very many more people in that village than <\/span>
the ones I just mentioned, and they all play very important roles in Will <\/span>
Hobby\u2019s life. And so I just find it interesting. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s <\/span>[00:22:00]<\/span> a <\/span>
unique situation. I think that American history, world history actually, is full of <\/span>
stories of how important these family networks are in terms of developing the <\/span>
important people, and Will Hobby was an example of that. <\/span>
He came out of this network that I call the Peach Tree Village network, which I <\/span>
found fascinating. I had no clue, no idea that that existed, but the other thing <\/span>
about Will Hobby that I didn\u2019t know about was that he became the editor of the <\/span>
Beaumont Enterprise<\/span>. In fact, he owned the <\/span>Beaumont Enterprise<\/span> at one point, <\/span>
of course, the main newspaper in the town of Beaumont, Texas, and Southeast <\/span>
Texas. Another thing important about Will Hobby\u2019s career is that he really <\/span>
embodies the whole idea of newspapers, really, serving as tools for town <\/span>
promotion, civic boosterism, and developing entrepreneurship in these <\/span>
[00:23:00]<\/span> cities as editor and publisher of the <\/span>Beaumont Enterprise<\/span>. He played <\/span>
a vital and key role in lobbying Congress and the state legislature to turn <\/span>
Beaumont into a deep-water port. He and some others helped secure the federal <\/span>
funding to dredge the river there at Beaumont to connect it to the Gulf of <\/span>
Mexico.<\/span>
[00:23:23]<\/span> But it\u2019s an interesting illustration of the role that these town <\/span>
newspapers, the city newspapers, the urban press, I should say, played in the <\/span>
development of the cities that they were conducting their business in. <\/span>
[00:23:38]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> So, as we look at Will\u2019s role as the editor of the <\/span>
Beaumont Enterprise<\/span> in his boosterism and making Beaumont a port city, we\u2019re<\/span>
also seeing him sit on the edge of a major transition in the state of Texas, which <\/span>
is a move from a rural state to more of an urban state.<\/span>
[00:23:57]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Well, that\u2019s correct. And Beaumont is where <\/span>
[00:24:00]<\/span> the revolution of petroleum transformed the world. It was the <\/span>
Spindletop well that really ushered the world into the modern petroleum era. <\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
And so here he was a newspaper publisher, and now he was not a publisher of <\/span>
the newspaper when they discovered oil in Beaumont, but it was just a few <\/span>
years later.<\/span>
[00:24:22]<\/span> And so that story was very much an important part of what role he <\/span>
played in boosting that city. So, the discovery of oil really made Beaumont. And<\/span>
I think that really, that Spindletop well in Beaumont symbolized that <\/span>
transformation of the Texas economy from this agricultural economy to more of<\/span>
an industrial economy with the petroleum.<\/span>
[00:24:53]<\/span> And he was there in the center of the action, so to speak. And that\u2019s <\/span>
also the case when he later became governor. <\/span>[00:25:00]<\/span> In the years he was <\/span>
governor in 1917, through 1920. He left office in January 1921. Uh, on his own <\/span>
accord, by the way, he wasn\u2019t defeated. Those years he was governor also were <\/span>
sort of a major transitional period for Texas, economically, socially, politically, <\/span>
a very important period.<\/span>
[00:25:22]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> Well let\u2019s talk a little bit more about some of the things<\/span>
that he dealt with as governor. And I think in some ways his legacy as governor <\/span>
is really not well known. And there\u2019s some pretty major things that he brokered <\/span>
or was involved with. We know him as the wartime governor, of course, <\/span>
because he was governor during World War I.<\/span>
[00:25:38]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Yeah. And that\u2019s important, Erin, because World <\/span>
War I is really this larger world event that had such a major impact all over the <\/span>
place, even in Texas. Texas was a place where the US military built a large <\/span>
number of <\/span>[00:26:00]<\/span> bases. And so many thousands of American troops were <\/span>
trained here in Texas during World War I.<\/span>
[00:26:06]<\/span> And of course Texas supplied oil to help fuel the military effort of <\/span>
the United States during World War I while he\u2019s governor during this period of <\/span>
time. He saw his chief duty as governor, as the wartime governor, was to do all <\/span>
that he could to support the American war effort. And he was very successful <\/span>
with that and helping and working with the war department<\/span>
[00:26:33]<\/span> by getting these bases built and a number of other things. It was not <\/span>
just World War I, as important as it was in the transition of Texas into a <\/span>
different kind of economy and political and social structure, but he was the <\/span>
governor who presided over two really important changes. One of them is still <\/span>
of course, with us today, obviously, <\/span>[00:27:00]<\/span> but let me mention what those <\/span>
two are.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
[00:27:03]<\/span> The political situation in Texas had been dominated for about twenty<\/span>
years before he became governor by the whole issue of the prohibition of <\/span>
alcohol, that issue\u2019s swaying back and forth and back and forth. Well it was <\/span>
while he was governor that that issue was finally resolved. And he was also the <\/span>
governor who signed the prohibition law here in Texas and just supported <\/span>
national prohibition.<\/span>
[00:27:32]<\/span> Although, just as an interesting little aside, he himself personally did <\/span>
not believe in prohibition\u2014as I often say, he didn\u2019t practice it at all privately. <\/span>
But he saw it as something that was going to continue to dominate the political <\/span>
situation in Texas and really get in the way of progress. And so he was more . . .<\/span>
it was almost like a practical thing.<\/span>
[00:27:57]<\/span> So prohibition was passed. <\/span>[00:28:00]<\/span> Of course it would later be <\/span>
overturned, but he was the prohibition governor. The other far more important <\/span>
thing was that he is the person as governor who supported women\u2019s suffrage. <\/span>
He signed the first really meaningful women\u2019s suffrage bill in Texas, and he <\/span>
was very proud of that accomplishment.<\/span>
[00:28:21]<\/span> He, like most men, had to be kind of pulled along, in this case by his <\/span>
wife, to really understand the importance of women\u2019s suffrage, but he came <\/span>
around and he did, he did propose it. I mean, he did promote it and supported it. <\/span>
Not only did he sign the women\u2019s suffrage bill in Texas, but as the United <\/span>
States was moving toward an amendment to the Constitution, making it a <\/span>
federal law that a women could vote,<\/span>
[00:28:49]<\/span> he actually went to two or three states like Oklahoma and Tennessee,<\/span>
and I believe Arkansas, and addressed the state legislatures there, urging them <\/span>
to <\/span>[00:29:00]<\/span> pass the amendment to the federal Constitution. That\u2019s another <\/span>
very important part of his legacy. <\/span>
[00:29:06]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> And these are, we should also point out, that these are <\/span>
both national issues.<\/span>
[00:29:10]<\/span> Obviously we\u2019ve just shown how he moved the needle on suffrage <\/span>
beyond Texas, but the issues he was dealing with were really larger historical <\/span>
issues. And I think it\u2019s interesting to reflect on how Texas was affected by these<\/span>
things and how he as a governor handled those issues. So we could get into a lot<\/span>
more detail on both of those, but I think it might be interesting for you to talk <\/span>
about some of the other things that were part of his being governor that maybe <\/span>
weren\u2019t quite as positive.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
[00:29:39]<\/span> Or I should say to him, it\u2019s a mixed legacy. It\u2019s like all history, it\u2019s <\/span>
complicated. <\/span>
[00:29:44]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Yes. Well, I guess, you know, it\u2019s like anything else <\/span>
and historians are no different from anyone else in this respect. How you <\/span>
evaluate and judge and make judgments about these things are dependent, really<\/span>
are contingent on your own views of the world <\/span>[00:30:00]<\/span> and the way you feel <\/span>
politically.<\/span>
[00:30:02]<\/span> For example, if you\u2019re a liberal Democrat or liberal period and pro-<\/span>
union, one of the things that you would criticize Will Hobby for is that, while he<\/span>
was governor of Texas, he broke a major strike. He ended a major strike with <\/span>
armed troops, with the national guard, the Texas national guard.<\/span>
[00:30:24]<\/span> He ended a strike in Galveston at the Galveston wharfs and put that <\/span>
down, essentially. He was anti-union. So, if you are pro-union, you would see <\/span>
that as one of Will Hobby\u2019s negatives. If you are anti-union, you would think <\/span>
that was quite an accomplishment. So, it\u2019s all according to your perspective, <\/span>
that\u2019s one thing. The other, however, as you know, particularly at the heart of <\/span>
the things that we are dealing with even today, unfortunately, and that is the <\/span>
issue of how the <\/span>[00:31:00]<\/span> United States has treated its African American <\/span>
citizens and the whole issue of race and the role that race plays in this country\u2019s <\/span>
history.<\/span>
[00:31:11]<\/span> He was not pro-civil rights. The whole movement to improve the lot <\/span>
of African American citizens in the United States wasn\u2019t even referred to as <\/span>
civil rights at the time, I don\u2019t believe, but nonetheless. He did have racial <\/span>
prejudice and that came out when he was governor. He did not support equal <\/span>
rights and, in fact, opposed it. He did grow as he aged. But I think that he <\/span>
probably never really gave up his, really his sort of prejudiced view of his <\/span>
fellow African American citizens. So he was not a governor who in any way <\/span>
pushed forward or helped the cause of African Americans. He wasn\u2019t a <\/span>
[00:32:00]<\/span> primitive. I mean, he absolutely opposed the Ku Klux Klan.<\/span>
[00:32:05]<\/span> And he also did not approve extralegal proceedings and especially <\/span>
murder that was represented by the lynchings that occurred in this state while he<\/span>
was governor. In fact, he sent the Texas Rangers to several places to try to <\/span>
prevent lynching. So that was abhorrent to him, the lawlessness, the cruelty, and<\/span>
so forth, but just on a daily basis, I do believe he believed, well, I know he <\/span>
believed in racial segregation, so that\u2019s a negative too.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
[00:32:40]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> I think another interesting piece of his legacy as the <\/span>
wartime governor is what has become known as the Hobby Act. And that\u2019s <\/span>
something that you talk about. <\/span>
[00:32:49]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> That\u2019s a good point, too. Yes, if you are a civil <\/span>
libertarian, you would not be happy with his record during World War I, <\/span>
basically suppressing freedom <\/span>[00:33:00]<\/span> of speech and civil liberties.<\/span>
[00:33:02]<\/span> Now this sounds like we\u2019ve got a draconian person as governor. I <\/span>
think this has to be, and I try to do this in the book, obviously, this has to be put <\/span>
in context, not to in any way, forgive the suppression of freedom of speech, <\/span>
freedom of the press, freedom of association, but it was during World War I and<\/span>
the entire nation was swept away with this whole anti-civil liberties <\/span>
environment. Anything that hinted to being pro-German, it was suppressed. <\/span>
Anyone who dare to say anything critical of the US war effort was put in jail, <\/span>
literally. And I mean, there were laws against speaking out. And so, the state of <\/span>
Texas, like many states in this country passed their own laws that were really <\/span>
called Loyalty Acts.<\/span>
[00:33:56]<\/span> And this one in Texas got the name, The Hobby <\/span>[00:34:00]<\/span> Loyalty <\/span>
Act. And it was a hyper-patriotic thing that supposedly, it was supposed to be, <\/span>
helping the US war effort. It\u2019s a dark episode. Not only in Will Hobby\u2019s story as<\/span>
governor, but really for the entire country. <\/span>
[00:34:19]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> I think to me, what is fascinating about reading the <\/span>
stories of Will and of Oveta is just the degree to which this is not a parochial <\/span>
story.<\/span>
[00:34:30]<\/span> This is a national story. And not just in terms of their own actions, <\/span>
but how their lives and everything that they lived through were tied to these <\/span>
broader and more, more universal American stories. <\/span>
[00:34:43]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Oh, absolutely. I mean, that\u2019s one of the reasons I <\/span>
was so interested in doing this, because even though Will Hobby is little known <\/span>
outside the state of Texas, in fact, unfortunately he\u2019s little known within the <\/span>
state of Texas, which is another reason why any historian wants to take on a <\/span>
subject is to educate the public, about people they should know about. Will <\/span>
Hobby as governor and the issues he dealt with did have national ramifications. <\/span>
I mean, women\u2019s suffrage is a good example, but of course his wife, his second <\/span>
wife, Oveta Culp Hobby, is really where the national connections really come <\/span>
roaring into this story.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
[00:35:23]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> Well let\u2019s then switch gears and talk about Oveta. <\/span>
[00:35:28]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Oveta Culp Hobby. Now she was thirty-something <\/span>
years younger than her husband. By the time she was twenty, she was well-<\/span>
known in the state. She was a parliamentarian of the Texas House of <\/span>
Representatives before she could even vote legally. So, she was an up-and-<\/span>
coming figure when she married the former governor Will Hobby.<\/span>
[00:35:50]<\/span> And interestingly enough, although Oveta Culp Hobby in her life <\/span>
was known as a conservative person, she was actually more liberal than, <\/span>
[00:36:00]<\/span> Will. I think it\u2019s important to point out when you study their <\/span>
relationship and when talking about this partnership, she had a major influence <\/span>
over, and actually I think played a major role in developing more liberal views <\/span>
about race in her husband Will Hobby.<\/span>
[00:36:18]<\/span> And so I just want to kind of differentiate when I talk about them <\/span>
going step by step and being a true partnership, I just want to emphasize that <\/span>
they also were individuals and had kind of a cross-fertilization with their <\/span>
individuality. And that\u2019s one way, she was more liberal than he was in race <\/span>
relations and did have an influence over him there.<\/span>
[00:36:41]<\/span> But, yes, she was brought to enter the national limelight in 1941, <\/span>
when she was invited by General George C. Marshall, who was the chief of <\/span>
staff of the US Army to advise the army as a woman newspaper publisher, <\/span>
[00:37:00]<\/span> one of the few in the country. The army, George C. Marshall, asked <\/span>
her to help them with a major problem that they had,<\/span>
[00:37:07]<\/span> and that was that the draft had just been imposed several months <\/span>
before. And the army was literally under an avalanche of letters from mothers <\/span>
and wives and sisters and girlfriends of some of these young men who had been <\/span>
drafted into the army. This was the first peacetime draft, I think in American <\/span>
history.<\/span>
[00:37:31]<\/span> And it really upset a lot of people because technically we were not at<\/span>
war yet. And so, the army didn\u2019t know how to handle it. They didn\u2019t know how <\/span>
to handle all of these unruly women who were complaining about what they <\/span>
were doing to their young men. So they asked Oveta to serve as an advisor on <\/span>
how to respond to this.<\/span>
[00:37:51]<\/span> And she agreed. That\u2019s really what got her\u2014her start at the national <\/span>
level was in helping the army explain <\/span>[00:38:00]<\/span> what they were doing with <\/span>
these young men.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
[00:38:03]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> This is a public relations role, really. <\/span>
[00:38:04]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> It was a public relations role, and she did such a <\/span>
great job at that when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and the US entered <\/span>
World War II, General Marshall asked her to work with him on a project that he<\/span>
had wanted to carry out a couple of years before, but it went nowhere.<\/span>
[00:38:24]<\/span> And that was to come up with a Women\u2019s Army Corps to bring <\/span>
women into the US Army to help in the war effort. And she agreed to do that. <\/span>
And another person who helped persuade her to do that and supported her was <\/span>
the first lady, Franklin Roosevelt\u2019s wife, Eleanor Roosevelt, who Oveta really <\/span>
got to know back in 1936, when the Roosevelts toured Texas, including <\/span>
Houston.<\/span>
[00:38:51]<\/span> And so Eleanor Roosevelt became an ally of Oveta\u2019s, as did General <\/span>
Marshall. And so, she agreed to work <\/span>[00:39:00]<\/span> with them and a <\/span>
congresswoman from Massachusetts by the name of Edith Nourse Rogers, who <\/span>
submitted a bill to Congress to create a Women\u2019s Army Corps. And she worked<\/span>
on and lobbied Congress to get that bill passed.<\/span>
[00:39:15]<\/span> And when I say she, I should say, Oveta lobbied Congress. It was <\/span>
Congresswoman Rogers\u2019s bill, and the Congress passed the bill. And when it <\/span>
allowed the creation of a Women\u2019s Army Corps, the Congress insisted that it be<\/span>
an auxiliary, that it not really be an actual legal part of the Army. When that was<\/span>
passed, Oveta was asked to command it.<\/span>
[00:39:40]<\/span> And she agreed, so she was the first woman really, eventually, in the <\/span>
US Army. And she played absolutely the key role in organizing what would <\/span>
become later the Women\u2019s Army Corps\u2014a bill would later be passed that <\/span>
would actually bring the Auxiliary Corps <\/span>[00:40:00]<\/span> into the regular army. And <\/span>
when that was done, Oveta became a colonel in the US Army.<\/span>
[00:40:07]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> Hence the title of the book… \u201cand the Colonel.\u201d <\/span>
[00:40:09]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Exactly. We\u2019ve got the governor, her husband, and <\/span>
the colonel, his wife. <\/span>
[00:40:15]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> We could talk at great length about Oveta\u2019s service in <\/span>
World War II. But the really striking thing was the degree to which she had to <\/span>
fight internal battles. Her enemy, if there was one, was really just the overall <\/span>
misogyny that was part of the military at that time.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
[00:40:29]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Well, she had misogyny on multiple fronts. One was <\/span>
the army, in fact, one of the chapters in my book is called \u201cBattling the Army,\u201d <\/span>
or fighting the army, the brass, male, of course, they were all male. Oh, you\u2019ve <\/span>
got to remember Oveta was the only officer for a while who was a woman in the<\/span>
army.<\/span>
[00:40:51]<\/span> And she had to deal with all of these Neanderthal army brass, who <\/span>
basically did not want women in the army. They didn\u2019t <\/span>[00:41:00]<\/span> accept it. <\/span>
And they had to put up with it because the commander in chief of the army, <\/span>
George C. Marshall, it was one of his pet projects. She would not have been <\/span>
able to get anything done if it hadn\u2019t been for General Marshall, but they fought <\/span>
her every step of the way.<\/span>
[00:41:15]<\/span> And, much of her story in building and organizing the Women\u2019s <\/span>
Army Corps was really battling her army colleagues who were against just <\/span>
about everything. It was openly misogynistic. These army officers were quite <\/span>
open about it. They didn\u2019t accept women in the military, but it also came from <\/span>
Congress, particularly from the southern delegation in Congress who never <\/span>
accepted women in the military during this period of time.<\/span>
[00:41:49]<\/span> And they fought, really, against her nomination, against her, against <\/span>
the creation of the Women\u2019s Army Corps. And they bothered her the whole <\/span>
time she was trying <\/span>[00:42:00]<\/span> to organize the Women\u2019s Army Corps and <\/span>
manage it. That was also misogynistic. I mean, members of the Congress, when <\/span>
she would go testify at hearings of committees, the members of the southern <\/span>
delegation unfailingly would make really ridiculous sexist remarks to her. They <\/span>
asked her at one hearing, how can we let these women join the army? Who\u2019s <\/span>
going to cook and wash the clothes and clean the house. I mean, just purely <\/span>
sexist. And there was another yahoo from South Carolina who was in the US <\/span>
Senate who literally told her that if these women joined the army and left their <\/span>
homes, that it would be the end of the United States.<\/span>
[00:42:44]<\/span> He didn\u2019t say it would be the end of the civilization, but he implied <\/span>
it. I mean, just crazy stuff like that. It was all very sexist. But the other thing <\/span>
that probably disappointed her the most was the misogyny that she ran into with<\/span>
her fellow journalists. <\/span>[00:43:00]<\/span> Men, not women, basically the columnists, but<\/span>
just the regular reporters too.<\/span>
[00:43:07]<\/span> I mean, there was one example. They were constantly fixated on her <\/span><\/div>\n
femininity, as she was an attractive person, but that tended to be all they wanted<\/span>
to write about, not her accomplishments, but how she was dressed. I mean, they <\/span>even asked her at press conferences, what was the contents of her purse and that<\/span>
sort of thing.<\/span>
[00:43:28]<\/span> And when the WACs had a training camp, an officer\u2019s training camp<\/span>
in Iowa at Fort Des Moines, and the Associated Press even asked her to pose in <\/span>
a swimming suit on a diving board at the swimming pool that they had at the <\/span>
training camp on a story about the WACs\u2014the commander, in a swimsuit, on a <\/span>
diving board.<\/span>
[00:43:50]<\/span> And of course the army nipped that in the bud immediately, but <\/span>
that\u2019s the kind of stuff, you know, they were constantly writing about her hairdo<\/span>
and, you know, that kind of thing.<\/span>
[00:43:59]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> So you\u2019re saying that they didn\u2019t ask General Marshall <\/span>
to do the same thing?<\/span>
[00:44:04]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Yeah. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Well, they even had <\/span>
an argument over whether they should be issuing bras to women in the Army <\/span>
Corps, the army brass, the men thought that was ridiculous and that they didn\u2019t <\/span>
have to wear bras as long as they had proper posture and did enough exercise.<\/span>
[00:44:24]<\/span> She also had battled the army brass because they decided that they <\/span>
would give any married woman who was in the Women\u2019s Army Corps an <\/span>
honorable discharge if she became pregnant. But any unmarried woman who <\/span>
became pregnant while she was in the corps would be given a dishonorable <\/span>
discharge. The army was calling the crime \u201cpregnancy without permission.\u201d<\/span>
[00:44:51]<\/span> And when that policy, the draft of that, came down to Oveta\u2019s office,<\/span>
she just hit the roof, and she went to war. <\/span>[00:45:00]<\/span> And she met with the <\/span>
commanders who were involved in this particular decision, and she won. And <\/span>
she did that because she pointed out to them that there was no civil or criminal <\/span>
law either in the military or anywhere else that made pregnancy illegal.<\/span>
[00:45:17]<\/span> There was no such thing as an illegal pregnancy. And she fought that<\/span>
and she finally asked the group that she was talking to, the commanders, if the <\/span>
policy was going to be extended to the male soldiers? That any male soldier <\/span>
who impregnated a woman not his wife would get a dishonorable discharge. <\/span>
The policy was then tossed in the wastepaper basket.<\/span>
[00:45:44]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> Well, we could go on and on about the various battles <\/span>
that she fought also when she was Secretary of the HEW under Eisenhower, <\/span>
that\u2019s an entirely separate conversation. What I\u2019d like to focus on though, are <\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
some <\/span>[00:46:00]<\/span> things that came out of your research that were maybe less <\/span>
well known or have been covered less by other historians.<\/span>
[00:46:07]<\/span> And one of those is the project that she worked on with the <\/span>
Rockefeller brothers. You mentioned how rich a resource the Rockefeller <\/span>
archives were for you. What was the project that she worked with them on in <\/span>
the late fifties? <\/span>
[00:46:19]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Well, that was an interesting project. It was also a <\/span>
surprise. So one of the surprising things I learned in my research\u2014she became <\/span>
really close friends with Nelson Rockefeller when he was Deputy Secretary of <\/span>
HEW, Health, Education, and Welfare.<\/span>
[00:46:35]<\/span> And when he left that post and after she left HEW, she was invited <\/span>
by Nelson Rockefeller to be among a stellar group of elites and intellectuals and<\/span>
scientists and foreign policy experts and a program that was called a Special <\/span>
Studies Program of the Rockefeller Foundation. Not the big Rockefeller <\/span>
[00:47:00]<\/span> Foundation, the older one, but the brothers, the Rockefeller brothers, <\/span>
had their own foundation and the special studies project was basically one of <\/span>
those sort of things that was so common in the post\u2013World War II period, where<\/span>
a lot of important people got together and basically tried to list all the problems <\/span>
of the world and then come up with solutions for them.<\/span>
[00:47:24]<\/span> And that\u2019s pretty much what a special studies program was about, <\/span>
but it\u2019s important for a lot of reasons. One thing was some of the <\/span>
recommendations that came out of it influenced the Kennedy administration, <\/span>
John F. Kennedy\u2019s presidency, but it also was a launching pad for the career of <\/span>
Henry Kissinger, who Rockefeller brought in. He was a professor at Harvard at <\/span>
this particular time, and he brought him in as the Director of Special Studies. <\/span>
And as such, because Oveta was not just <\/span>[00:48:00]<\/span> a figurehead in this, she <\/span>
actually was an active member of the studies groups. She interacted frequently <\/span>
with Kissinger and she played a role in influencing some of the conclusions the <\/span>
special studies group came up with. <\/span>
So, it was important for a lot of reasons, but again, one of them was, it was the <\/span>
launching pad for Henry Kissinger\u2019s future career. <\/span>
[00:48:25]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> I think it\u2019s also interesting to look at what this whole <\/span>
study was about and how Oveta was involved in this. It was like a think tank <\/span>
really, of some of the brightest minds in the country trying to solve major <\/span>
problems for the United States, correct?<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
[00:48:40]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> When they finished their reports, the reports were <\/span>
actually bestsellers. They\u2019re long forgotten now because they were very, they\u2019re<\/span>
very dated. Like many problems they dealt with, they came up with <\/span>
recommendations for problems we\u2019re still dealing with today. They were <\/span>
largely focused on foreign affairs and foreign policy of the United <\/span>[00:49:00]<\/span>
States because this was the height of the Cold War, but they had other things <\/span>
they were focused on.<\/span>
[00:49:05]<\/span> A good example of Oveta\u2019s role on one of the committees was the <\/span>
studying of agricultural policy in the United States for the 1950s and what the <\/span>
future ought to be. A draft of their proposal was sent to Oveta to critique and the<\/span>
proposal basically was arguing that the federal government should provide <\/span>
funds to encourage small farmers to give up their farms because agribusiness <\/span>
was more efficient and it would be taking over agriculture. And so the federal <\/span>
government should come up with a program to pay for these small farms and to <\/span>
move all of these small farmers and their families to the city and find jobs for <\/span>
them in the city. Oveta read this report and these recommendations, and she <\/span>
contacted Henry Kissinger and said, <\/span>[00:50:00]<\/span> ah, no, no, no, this, this won\u2019t <\/span>
do, Henry.<\/span>
[00:50:02]<\/span> How different is this from the collective farms in the Soviet Union? <\/span>
Where small farmers were moved off of their farms and put on the big farms or <\/span>
what we call collective farms owned by the Soviet government And so here we <\/span>
are in a Cold War and we\u2019re making proposals that smack of Communism? <\/span>
Kissinger, in the final correspondence between them, backed off immediately.<\/span>
[00:50:29]<\/span> You\u2019re absolutely right. That\u2019s just one example of her influence in <\/span>
that whole project. <\/span>
[00:50:36]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> Yeah. I also know that as you were moving through the<\/span>
research process and you were looking at Oveta\u2019s various relationships with <\/span>
important figures, one that really jumped out was her relationship with LBJ, <\/span>
with President Johnson.<\/span>
[00:50:52]<\/span> And of course they had a very longstanding relationship, but I\u2019m <\/span>
particularly interested in how you would characterize their relationship, <\/span>
[00:51:00]<\/span> especially when he was president. <\/span>
[00:51:02]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Well, it was just very warm and friendly. I mean, <\/span>
you know, her relationship with LBJ really stemmed from Will\u2019s relationship <\/span>
with LBJ\u2019s father.<\/span><\/div>\n
<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
\n
[00:51:12]<\/span> When Will was governor of Texas, LBJ\u2019s father was in the Texas <\/span>
Legislature and was one of Will Hobby\u2019s allies in the legislature when Will was<\/span>
governor. So the families, the Johnson family, and the Hobby family go, you <\/span>
know, went way back to World War I, and then when the young Lyndon <\/span>
Johnson decided to run for Congress the first time, he made a beeline to <\/span>
Houston to get the endorsement of the Hobbys, because the <\/span>Houston Post<\/span> was <\/span>
the Hobbys\u2019 paper and was extremely influential politically. And so they <\/span>
renewed their friendship with the young Lyndon and that\u2019s where Oveta and <\/span>
Lyndon met. And when Johnson was trying to get their support in the 1930s, <\/span>
when he first ran for Congress. Then <\/span>[00:52:00]<\/span> Johnson was in Congress when <\/span>
Oveta was head of the WACs.<\/span>
[00:52:03]<\/span> And so they socialized and were mutually supportive. And the same <\/span>
thing, Johnson was, at one point, minority leader of the Senate and another point<\/span>
majority leader of the Senate when Oveta was Secretary of HEW. In fact, <\/span>
Lyndon Johnson was the person who took her to her nomination committee <\/span>
hearing and introduced her to his fellow senators.<\/span>
[00:52:27]<\/span> So they had this long, warm relationship and after Will Hobby died<\/span>
\u2014and, by the way, Lyndon Johnson visited Will quite frequently before his <\/span>
death, and Will was kind of a mentor in some ways to LBJ\u2014but after Will died <\/span>
and LBJ was president and Will died in 1964. And Johnson was president by <\/span>
that time, a year after the Kennedy assassination.<\/span>
[00:52:52]<\/span> And so Johnson really tried to bring Oveta into his administration <\/span>
and she <\/span>[00:53:00]<\/span> really wasn\u2019t ready for another federal appointment, full-<\/span>
time appointment. So Johnson talked her into taking on several task forces in <\/span>
the Johnson administration. One of them was to go to Vietnam during the war, <\/span>
which she did. She went with John Gardner and they were sent over there by <\/span>
LBJ with another group of specialists to see if LBJ wanted to take the Great <\/span>
Society to South Vietnam<\/span>
[00:53:27]<\/span> as part of the war against the communists. So she went over to South<\/span>
Vietnam and toured South Vietnam and participated in a report on that. She was<\/span>
on a task force to study the selective service, the situation with the draft, which <\/span>
was very controversial during the Vietnam War, but, in fact, the most important,<\/span>
long-lasting contribution Oveta made to the Johnson administration was the role<\/span>
that she played on a task force that led to the creation of the Corporation for <\/span>
Public <\/span>[00:54:00]<\/span> Broadcasting, which created PBS and NPR.<\/span><\/div>\n
<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
\n
[00:54:02]<\/span> She was influential and quite involved in that as well. So they had a <\/span>
very close and warm relationship, and she spent the night at the White House <\/span>
many times, and she and Lady Bird were very close friends as well. <\/span>
[00:54:16]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> One of the sources that was really important as you <\/span>
were delving into the relationship between LBJ and Oveta were the telephone <\/span>
recordings during LBJ\u2019s presidency. So how did those recordings demonstrate <\/span>
the nature of their relationship? <\/span>
[00:54:33]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Well, LBJ recorded all of his telephone calls, <\/span>
certainly most of them, if not all, I mean, had them recorded. And he was <\/span>
thinking about the history, the importance these calls would be to history, but <\/span>
they were supposed to be closed for many, many years and thankfully Lady <\/span>
Bird Johnson, a few years after her husband died, agreed to lift those <\/span>
restrictions.<\/span>
[00:54:56]<\/span> And thankfully the recordings and the <\/span>[00:55:00]<\/span> transcripts\u2014there <\/span>
are transcripts as well\u2014are available now. I mined those recordings, and it was <\/span>
really fun just sitting and listening to Oveta and President Johnson, just talking <\/span>
on the telephone. I\u2019m certain Oveta thought that they were confidential and they<\/span>
weren\u2019t being recorded.<\/span>
[00:55:19]<\/span> In fact, I\u2019m sure everyone who spoke to Johnson thought the same <\/span>
thing. But it was a great insight listening to those two work each other. They <\/span>
had a really close and warm relationship, but also, Oveta very much wanted to <\/span>
still be in the action, nationally, and with the government and public policy. <\/span>
And Johnson very much wanted this woman, who was one of the most <\/span>
influential women in the United States at that time, and was the owner of a <\/span>
major newspaper and television radio station.<\/span>
[00:55:54]<\/span> So they had mutual interests. Let\u2019s put it that way. I guess a mutual <\/span>
[00:56:00]<\/span> self-interest would be a better way of putting it. But there\u2019s no <\/span>
question listening to them talk they enjoyed each other very much. And of <\/span>
course, Lyndon Johnson, listening to these telephone calls. And this is true with <\/span>
many of the telephone calls that he had with other people.<\/span>
[00:56:13]<\/span> And he\u2019s just an amazing guy. It was just appealing to and flattering <\/span>
the people he\u2019s talking to. And he was very flattering to Oveta, and she would <\/span>
giggle. She was a pretty formidable personality that you didn\u2019t see giggle in <\/span>
public. And so, it was fun listening to her giggle at Johnson\u2019s flattery of her.<\/span><\/div>\n
<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
\n
[00:56:37]<\/span> And it just was a real insight into not only their relationship, but it <\/span>
showed a different side of Oveta to me. That sort of private side that was shut <\/span>
out for me because I was basing my knowledge of Oveta on her papers and <\/span>
records and this sort of thing. And, of course, that is not a good way to really get<\/span>
a full understanding of <\/span>[00:57:00]<\/span> somebody\u2019s private personality.<\/span>
[00:57:01]<\/span> So they, it was a real gold mine for me. <\/span>
[00:57:04]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> I think it\u2019s also a great example of how a new treasure <\/span>
trove of source material, like those recordings, can really illuminate for a <\/span>
historian, a person\u2019s personality. <\/span>
[00:57:15]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> But, yes, they were supposed to be closed for many, <\/span>
many, many years, but that\u2019s a good example of when historians talk about <\/span>
history and the research that we do in history and in the findings that we come <\/span>
up with and put in books, a good historian always knows that their history, <\/span>
whatever history they\u2019ve done is not definitive.<\/span>
[00:57:34]<\/span> And it\u2019s not the last word. And this is a good example. If I had done <\/span>
this book before those interviews have been made public, there\u2019s a whole side <\/span>
of a really, to be honest with you, a side of Oveta that I would have missed. And<\/span>
I wouldn\u2019t really have understood that relationship with President Johnson.<\/span>
[00:57:53]<\/span> That\u2019s how revealing those recorded interviews were. But that\u2019s a <\/span>
good example. Someone then <\/span>[00:58:00]<\/span> could, after I wrote this book about <\/span>
Will and Oveta Hobby, someone could come behind me and have access to <\/span>
those tapes that I wouldn\u2019t have had access to and had a different book in some <\/span>
ways than what I\u2019ve produced.<\/span>
[00:58:14]<\/span> So our view of history is always changing for a lot of reasons, <\/span>
perspective, for example, but also because we\u2019re always uncovering new <\/span>
sources that aren\u2019t available to the historians when they\u2019re working at a <\/span>
particular time. <\/span>
[00:58:32]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> I think that\u2019s also a good reminder of why the Briscoe <\/span>
Center does what it does in terms of preserving these resources and then making<\/span>
them accessible.<\/span>
[00:58:40]<\/span> It\u2019s a way to continually re-examine the past and look at how these, <\/span>
what were, you know, we can agree on facts, let\u2019s say, but these interpretations <\/span>
do change over time. <\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
[00:58:54]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Well, they change over time and also then that\u2019s <\/span>
what our business is basically, <\/span>[00:59:00]<\/span> is to keep growing our collections <\/span>
because of this very thing we\u2019re talking about, because our view of history <\/span>
changes.<\/span>
[00:59:07]<\/span> The more sources that we have, we continually seek to add more <\/span>
material and collections to our holdings because that\u2019s how we continue to <\/span>
make history live is to bring in these new collections. And give not only <\/span>
ourselves, but other historians and students and teachers who use our resources, <\/span>
fresh information that can change a whole viewpoint.<\/span>
[00:59:37]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> Well, Don, I want to say thank you for sitting on the <\/span>
other side of the microphone this time and being our guest here on American <\/span>
Rhapsody. I do want to point out that your work with the Hobby family <\/span>
continues. Do you have another book that is in progress? Tell us a little bit <\/span>
about that before we wrap up today.<\/span>
[00:59:52]<\/span> Don Carleton:<\/span> Erin Purdy and I are co-authors of a biography of <\/span>
Bill Hobby, the son of <\/span>[01:00:00]<\/span> Oveta Culp Hobby and William P. Hobby Sr.<\/span>
Bill Hobby, whose full name is William P. Hobby Jr., was involved for a good <\/span>
portion of his life in helping to develop the family newspaper and their media <\/span>
properties and television stations. As far as Texas history is concerned he\u2019s a <\/span>
major political figure.<\/span>
[01:00:22]<\/span> He was elected lieutenant governor of Texas in 1972, and he served <\/span>
until 1990\u2014that\u2019s an eighteen-year period, roughly. Many times longer than <\/span>
any other lieutenant governor in the history of Texas. And he was a major force <\/span>
presiding over the senate in Texas. So, he played a key role of a critical role in <\/span>
much of the legislation that was passed by the Texas legislature in the 1970s <\/span>
and 1980s.<\/span>
[01:00:56]<\/span> So anyway, we\u2019re, Erin and I are working on that <\/span>[01:01:00]<\/span>
biography now, not literally as we speak, but maybe as soon as we quit. <\/span>
[01:01:05]<\/span> Erin Purdy:<\/span> That\u2019s right, as soon as I turn off the recording. We <\/span>
should mention that Bill Hobby\u2019s personal papers are here at the center. And <\/span>
again, that\u2019s an example of how our collections inspire original scholarship.<\/span>
[01:01:15]<\/span> So that\u2019s what we have to look forward to.<\/span>
[01:01:27]<\/span> This episode of American Rhapsody was brought to you by several <\/span>
collections at the Briscoe Center, including the papers of William P. Hobby Sr., <\/span>Oscar Colquitt, James Ferguson, Jesse H. Jones and Ross Sterling. People <\/span>across America have entrusted this evidence to us. And it\u2019s used by people from <\/span>across America.<\/span><\/div>\n
[01:01:49]<\/span> In addition to inspiring their work, it inspires our own books, <\/span><\/div>\n
documentaries, exhibits, online repositories, and digital humanities projects. <\/span><\/div>\n
[01:02:00]<\/span> By collecting, preserving, and making available these materials, we <\/span><\/div>\n
help keep the debates and arguments about who we are rooted in evidence, and <\/span><\/div>\n
we keep the American Rhapsody going.<\/span><\/div>\n
[01:02:10]<\/span> I\u2019m Erin Purdy. Thank you for joining<\/span> us.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n"},"episode_featured_image":false,"episode_player_image":"https:\/\/podcasts.la.utexas.edu\/american-rhapsody\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/31\/2020\/11\/American_Rhapsody_1400x1400.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/podcasts.la.utexas.edu\/american-rhapsody\/podcast-download\/305\/episode-11.mp3","player_link":"https:\/\/podcasts.la.utexas.edu\/american-rhapsody\/podcast-player\/305\/episode-11.mp3","audio_player":"